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[GPSguru]

4 hours ago, JonC said:

I had not seen this not, so I watched a couple of YouTubes .What does the bobbin do other than hold the line with some resistance? I looked on the interweb and the shimano ones are about £65, seems a lot for a weight . 

You can get a PR bobbin from Terry at Jigabite for less than £30.

Mine is a trabucco from Italy and cost me £44.

I am pretty sure the Shimano is not available in the UK.

 

[GPSguru]

3 hours ago, Malc said:

Just looking at the PR on the toob and it seems to be mostly for heavier gear, is that right?

Finished knot looks much like the other one but just uses a fly tying bobbin? Basically a whipping. 

No, you can use the PR knot on light lines, just reduce the bobbin clutch tension.

The PR knot is essentially a very tight FG with many more turns. 

the bobbin keeps the line tight to the knot as it releases line through the clutch.

A properly tied PR is very streamlined and deffo 100% of the line strength.

I use it mainly on my SPG gear. Tying 20lb braid to a 20lb FC leader, but I also use it on the shark rods for tying 80lb braid to the 80lb co polymer top shot.

 

 

 

Edited March 24, 2023 by GPSguru

[Odyssey]

I’ve moved over to splicing for my braid to mono conversion. I don’t have a bobbin but I’ve good set of splicing needles so do it that way…. Not too fiddly once you get used to it 🙂 

[GPSguru]

1 minute ago, Odyssey said:

I’ve moved over to splicing for my braid to mono conversion. I don’t have a bobbin but I’ve good set of splicing needles so do it that way…. Not too fiddly once you get used to it 🙂 

I only splice when using hollow core braid.

[GPSguru]

13 minutes ago, JonC said:

https://www.desertcart.co.uk/products/32327491-shimano-th-202n-bobbin-knotter-knot-machine-heavy-p-e-1-5-8-black-413352?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIurSjhMv0_QIVkN_tCh0nugXiEAQYASABEgJ42PD_BwE

2 years ago, I tried to get the shimano from both a USA supplier and an Oz supplier. Both told me that they were not allowed by shimano to ship that product to the EU market. I guess that may have changed.

[GPSguru]

The FG, PR, and Bimini (loop) are all based on the Chinese finger principle, i.e. the harder you pull, the tighter it gets. Also the load is spread through the whole length of the knot ( think cable pulling sleeve), so the longer the knot, the more the load is spread. 

[Andy135]

13 minutes ago, GPSguru said:

 so the longer the knot, the more the load is spread. 

This is only partially helpful though. What I mean is that the same amount of load (the limit of one's ability to apply tension on the knot) is spread more thinly across a wider surface area, meaning the average load per braid wrap can reduce. Same as how a car with wide profile car tyres can aquaplane more easily than the same model of car with skinny tyres. Both cars have the same load but with skinny tyres the load is focussed on a smaller contact patch with the road giving better performance on wet road surfaces.

I've found that with more than about 25 wraps of braid, the first few wraps don't get cinched down as much as the wraps at the end nearer the hitches. Over time this allows all the wraps to work loose and the knot comes undone. So less can be more with wrap-based knots.

[Saintly Fish]

1 hour ago, Andy135 said:

This is only partially helpful though. What I mean is that the same amount of load (the limit of one's ability to apply tension on the knot) is spread more thinly across a wider surface area, meaning the average load per braid wrap can reduce. Same as how a car with wide profile car tyres can aquaplane more easily than the same model of car with skinny tyres. Both cars have the same load but with skinny tyres the load is focussed on a smaller contact patch with the road giving better performance on wet road surfaces.

I've found that with more than about 25 wraps of braid, the first few wraps don't get cinched down as much as the wraps at the end nearer the hitches. Over time this allows all the wraps to work loose and the knot comes undone. So less can be more with wrap-based knots.

Or..... your not tying it right??

[Andy135]

Just now, Saintly Fish said:

Or..... your not tying it right??

You're missing the point. It becomes almost impossible to put sufficient tension on more than around 25 wraps, so if you use, say 30 wraps, the first 5 won't be under tension, even if you follow every other part of the process correctly. So my point was that @GPSguru is only partially right in saying that the longer the knot, the more the load is spread. Too long isn't actually helpful in this case.

[Saintly Fish]

7 minutes ago, Andy135 said:

You're missing the point. It becomes almost impossible to put sufficient tension on more than around 25 wraps, so if you use, say 30 wraps, the first 5 won't be under tension, even if you follow every other part of the process correctly. So my point was that @GPSguru is only partially right in saying that the longer the knot, the more the load is spread. Too long isn't actually helpful in this case.

Or your not tying it right!!

[Andy135]

4 minutes ago, Saintly Fish said:

Or your not tying it right!!

[Saintly Fish]

Just now, Andy135 said:

So 24 is ok, but 25 is too many?

[Andy135]

1 minute ago, Saintly Fish said:

So 24 is ok, but 25 is too many?

No. 25 is ok, but not 26. 26 is waaaaay too many.

[GPSguru]

1 hour ago, Andy135 said:

This is only partially helpful though. What I mean is that the same amount of load (the limit of one's ability to apply tension on the knot) is spread more thinly across a wider surface area, meaning the average load per braid wrap can reduce. Same as how a car with wide profile car tyres can aquaplane more easily than the same model of car with skinny tyres. Both cars have the same load but with skinny tyres the load is focussed on a smaller contact patch with the road giving better performance on wet road surfaces.

I've found that with more than about 25 wraps of braid, the first few wraps don't get cinched down as much as the wraps at the end nearer the hitches. Over time this allows all the wraps to work loose and the knot comes undone. So less can be more with wrap-based knots.

Even tension will only be applied over length of knot IF ALL THE WRAPS are applied with equal tension. The PR bobbin makes a better job of the tension than could ever be applied by hand.

As a time served transmission and cable balancing engineer, there is a formula for length of pull sleeve ( Chinese finger) given cable dia, and pull tonnage. This would be equally applicable to line dia vs BS.

 

[Malc]

3 hours ago, GPSguru said:

I only splice when using hollow core braid.

This is the only splicing you should be doing...

...but with gunpowder proof rum.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Malc
.

[Saintly Fish]

25 minutes ago, Andy135 said:

No. 25 is ok, but not 26. 26 is waaaaay too many.

It's a good job we have you here to experiment for us!

[Andy135]

1 minute ago, Saintly Fish said:

It's a good job we have you here to experiment for us!

All part of the service from the SLT...

[Saintly Fish]

19 minutes ago, GPSguru said:

Even tension will only be applied over length of knot IF ALL THE WRAPS are applied with equal tension. The PR bobbin makes a better job of the tension than could ever be applied by hand.

As a time served transmission and cable balancing engineer, there is a formula for length of pull sleeve ( Chinese finger) given cable dia, and pull tonnage. This would be equally applicable to line dia vs BS.

 

I struggle with the bobbin when it comes to going back across the first load of twists. It never seems to want to travel back the way I swear at it to. Is my tension too tight?

[Hoop]

17 hours ago, JDP said:

I see to many fg's pull apart on decent fish over here from experienced anglers who think they have perfected them. 

As you will recall, those solent salmon and 3 bearded rockling dont half go some... stands to reason that the bench mark for any international tackle test, takes place in the mighty Solent. 😁 

An FG tied properly won't give up before other weak points in the line..  👍

[Saintly Fish]

Just now, Andy135 said:

All part of the service from the SLT...

If I had a cap I would doth it in yore direction!

[GPSguru]

6 minutes ago, Saintly Fish said:

I struggle with the bobbin when it comes to going back across the first load of twists. It never seems to want to travel back the way I swear at it to. Is my tension too tight?

No, not too tight, there is a knack to finger placement which sends the bobbin in the opposite direction.

[Saintly Fish]

7 minutes ago, GPSguru said:

No, not too tight, there is a knack to finger placement which sends the bobbin in the opposite direction.

Can you show on a diagram please? (Notice unlike some, I say please)

[Hoop]

50 minutes ago, JonC said:

Your point about 3 beardeds does stand up. The main issue for me with other nots is the size and the fig not greatly reduces that. Most of us fish over gunned anyway so the chances of a fish smashing us up as opposed to getting snapped are generally low. 

Here, here Jon. I think for the most part size etc is relative to lines used. Decent lines tend to knot better, give higher resistance to abrasion at lower diameters. 

Not a million miles away from the topic, I've heard recently of a theory regarding braided lines vibrating in tide and in turn spooking nearby feeding fish? 🤔 Some beach folk turning their backs to braid and fixed spools, going back to multis and mono.. wondered what the average boaty thought on this? 

[Andy135]

7 minutes ago, Hoop said:

Not a million miles away from the topic, I've heard recently of a theory regarding braided lines vibrating in tide and in turn spooking nearby feeding fish? 🤔 Some beach folk turning their backs to braid and fixed spools, going back to multis and mono.. wondered what the average boaty thought on this? 

That's a new one on me. We've always been told that braid cuts through the tide better as it's thinner. Surely fatter mono would catch more tide and vibrate more I would have thought, but who knows. Either way, I've now got another excuse to add to my armoury for the next time I blank 😉

[Hoop]

8 minutes ago, JonC said:

Not heard that one but it could be a thing. But I’m not average so my thoughts aren’t applicable 

Average!? Never.. Jon = boaty Jedi!

 

4 minutes ago, Andy135 said:

That's a new one on me. We've always been told that braid cuts through the tide better as it's thinner. Surely fatter mono would catch more tide and vibrate more I would have thought, but who knows. Either way, I've now got another excuse to add to my armoury for the next time I blank 😉

Losing your touch old chap? Historically saved by a dog or three...