One for jonnyswamp

[Saintly Fish]

37 minutes ago, jonnyswamp said:

Did you cross the water and gas 🤣

I didn’t create the problem, I’m asking you if your clever enough to work out what the problem is? Obviously not though 😩

I fixed it yesterday and thought I’d pass on the info after a little test.

[jonnyswamp]

10 minutes ago, Saintly Fish said:

I didn’t create the problem, I’m asking you if your clever enough to work out what the problem is? Obviously not though 😩

I fixed it yesterday and thought I’d pass on the info after a little test.

Go on then, I'll bow to your superior knowledge

What did you work out all on your lonesome 🙃

[Saintly Fish]

23 minutes ago, jonnyswamp said:

Go on then, I'll bow to your superior knowledge

What did you work out all on your lonesome 🙃

I’m not telling you now. You’ve built it up too much. 👅

[Saintly Fish]

All right , All right , ALL RIGHT FFS I’ll tell you, just stop with the constant PM’s .....jeez

 

The fan has a snorkel style air intake  which sucks the gas from the gas valve rather than the gas pressure being regulated by a governor. The air gas mixture is pre mixed before hitting the burner. Well, that snorkel has a noise suppressor built into it (the rectangular box at the top). In that box is a load of foam which suppresses the noise of the air being sucked into the fan. This is how the boilers keep their quietness. If that foam becomes unstuck from the case it can be sucked in cucumber shaped slices along the rest of the snorkel. This In turn blocks the airs passage and results in incomplete combustion. As we all know incomplete combustion by way of too little air makes a flame lift off the burner. As this happens the flame retention device registers no ignition and shuts the boiler down. 
On heating, ie low gas consumption the problem is not noticed until flow and return sensors recommend a higher rate of gas to quicken the heating cycle. This is why engineers assume (as you did) that if it’s not the gas valve it must be the PCB. But by that time the customer is already £300 + vat down in parts and still has the same problem. 
The moral of this story is.... before buying parts for the f28,f29 and f54 problem, disconnect the air noise suppressor first and run the boiler up. Just to check. 
Also it pays to always pop your head out side and make sure no foliage has grown into the air intake of the flue. 
 

[jonnyswamp]

I would've noticed that when removing the snorkel to take out the burner to check the electrodes, did the previous engineer even look at anything other than the screen showing the fault codes

And yes, basic checks first, have you got gas, air, power, demand

I assumed board because I assumed you had checked all other avenues and wasn't sure of your credentials as a breakdown engineer

You seem OK 

[Saintly Fish]

3 minutes ago, jonnyswamp said:

I would've noticed that when removing the snorkel to take out the burner to check the electrodes, did the previous engineer even look at anything other than the screen showing the fault codes

And yes, basic checks first, have you got gas, air, power, demand

I assumed board because I assumed you had checked all other avenues and wasn't sure of your credentials as a breakdown engineer

You seem OK 

Gee thanks. I’ve only been doing it 32 years to. I’m not convinced by your credentials though..... you don’t need to remove the burner to check the electrodes. 🙄

[jonnyswamp]

Easier to remove complete burner (4 nuts) than damaging the gasket on the electrode set

Wouldn't you check the burner itself when looing for an ignition based fault

EDIT

35 yrs for me

Edited December 3, 2020 by jonnyswamp

[Saintly Fish]

4 minutes ago, jonnyswamp said:

Easier to remove complete burner (4 nuts) than damaging the gasket on the electrode set

Wouldn't you check the burner itself when looing for an ignition based fault

EDIT

35 yrs for me

Not necessarily. Burners don’t just suddenly develop faults, if ever. They may get a bit mucky depending on the outside environment around the flue terminal. but not as a general rule no. 
A burner fault would be a symptom that has built up and worsened over time. And this would be apparent by checking the digital fault codes history. Plus, unless your carrying a service seal kit, I wouldn’t advise it.

[Andy135]

These two are either going to have a fight or get a room...

Place your bets now!

[GPSguru]

52 minutes ago, Saintly Fish said:

All right , All right , ALL RIGHT FFS I’ll tell you, just stop with the constant PM’s .....jeez

 

The fan has a snorkel style air intake  which sucks the gas from the gas valve rather than the gas pressure being regulated by a governor. The air gas mixture is pre mixed before hitting the burner. Well, that snorkel has a noise suppressor built into it (the rectangular box at the top). In that box is a load of foam which suppresses the noise of the air being sucked into the fan. This is how the boilers keep their quietness. If that foam becomes unstuck from the case it can be sucked in cucumber shaped slices along the rest of the snorkel. This In turn blocks the airs passage and results in incomplete combustion. As we all know incomplete combustion by way of too little air makes a flame lift off the burner. As this happens the flame retention device registers no ignition and shuts the boiler down. 
On heating, ie low gas consumption the problem is not noticed until flow and return sensors recommend a higher rate of gas to quicken the heating cycle. This is why engineers assume (as you did) that if it’s not the gas valve it must be the PCB. But by that time the customer is already £300 + vat down in parts and still has the same problem. 
The moral of this story is.... before buying parts for the f28,f29 and f54 problem, disconnect the air noise suppressor first and run the boiler up. Just to check. 
Also it pays to always pop your head out side and make sure no foliage has grown into the air intake of the flue. 
 

They need to bring back simple things to fix, like the old Thorn Olympic 👍

[Saintly Fish]

1 minute ago, GPSguru said:

They need to bring back simple things to fix, like the old Thorn Olympic 👍

Ahhh a brainless lump of cast iron. 

[jonnyswamp]

I hear what you're saying, but some faults just "happen" burners crack, condense pipes block and back up into heat exchangers causing all sorts of shit and it wouldn't be wise not to check inside there

I always check basics before delving in deeper, learned the hard way years ago

More than one way to skin a cat I spose

[Andy135]

1 minute ago, JonC said:

Imagine these two in their full glory, at the plumbers bar getting smashed. 

Wearing their elbow-length Marigolds and waving their plungers at each other suggestively...

[GPSguru]

2 minutes ago, Saintly Fish said:

Ahhh a brainless lump of cast iron. 

True, but it was reliable and easy to fix ........ plus. there are  a lot of them still working.

[jonnyswamp]

6 minutes ago, Saintly Fish said:

Ahhh a brainless lump of cast iron. 

Fuck all wrong with the oldies, a stat, a thermocouple and a gas valve, not much to go wrong and they never usually failed (apart from a thermocouple every few years)

Still got quite a few on my books, although I changed a gas valve on a floor standing Mexico earlier this week £170 odd plus vat, bit salty that for a Honeywell valve I thought

EDIT

I'm talking about cast iron boilers in general, not any specific model

Before you start pissing higher than me again 😍

Edited December 3, 2020 by jonnyswamp

[Saintly Fish]

34 minutes ago, jonnyswamp said:

Fuck all wrong with the oldies, a stat, a thermocouple and a gas valve, not much to go wrong and they never usually failed (apart from a thermocouple every few years)

Still got quite a few on my books, although I changed a gas valve on a floor standing Mexico earlier this week £170 odd plus vat, bit salty that for a Honeywell valve I thought

EDIT

I'm talking about cast iron boilers in general, not any specific model

Before you start pissing higher than me again 😍

Respect to you for having a strong pressure behind your stream! 
Im a great fan of BBU’s. An old school has fire slapped to the front of another lump of iron. What’s not to love? 💋

[GPSguru]

2 hours ago, Saintly Fish said:

As this happens the flame retention device registers no ignition and shuts the boiler down.

 

So, if for any reason the exhaust gas senses the wrong Air / Gas mixture, then it shuts the boiler down ? ............ I guess this makes good sense to avoid carbon monoxide etc.

Does a shutdown via this path automatically trigger a gas valve fault code ?

[Andy135]

6 minutes ago, GPSguru said:

 

So, if for any reason the exhaust gas senses the wrong Air / Gas mixture, then it shuts the boiler down ? ............ I guess this makes good sense to avoid carbon monoxide etc.

Does a shutdown via this path automatically trigger a gas valve fault code ?

Don't encourage them Ian! We'll never get them to shut up otherwise 🤐

[Saintly Fish]

9 hours ago, GPSguru said:

 

So, if for any reason the exhaust gas senses the wrong Air / Gas mixture, then it shuts the boiler down ? ............ I guess this makes good sense to avoid carbon monoxide etc.

Does a shutdown via this path automatically trigger a gas valve fault code ?

No not necessarily. It will shut down but with a no flame detected code.