Recreational angling NOW permitted under Lockdown 3

[suzook12]

46 minutes ago, Andy135 said:

So it seems that driving even 5 miles for exercise is not permitted... in Derbyshire at least. Two women go for a walk round a reservoir after separately driving 5 miles from their homes, and each get handed £200 fines.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-55560814

Local danglers beware? 

Good, it categorically states in your village/town/suburb ...... I am lucky that we have several fishing lakes within the village and a river and footpaths to access much of the river, I also understand I can't go sea fishing, I could maybe fish the local estuary if I combined it with a shopping trip but that would be taking the piss a bit I feel. An hour or two in the afternoon with a lure rod for pike will be just fine, tho, currently, got work to do up the workshop......

[GPSguru]

59 minutes ago, Andy135 said:

So it seems that driving even 5 miles for exercise is not permitted... in Derbyshire at least. Two women go for a walk round a reservoir after separately driving 5 miles from their homes, and each get handed £200 fines.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-55560814

Local danglers beware? 

 

Hmm ............ the issue of travel and distance is not defined in the lockdown law that was passed by parliament this week, so I think there might be a re-think by Police forces on how they handle this,

This makes good reading ...........

Guidance issued by the Cabinet Office states that people can leave their homes for exercise but should not travel outside their "local area".

However, the actual legislation does not specify a maximum distance that people are allowed to travel for exercise.

Both the guidance and legislation state people can exercise with one other person, as Jessica Allen and Eliza Moore did.

Human rights barrister Adam Wagner said: "There is no law against travelling to exercise. The guidance is not legally binding and the police have no power to enforce it unless it is reflected in the lockdown regulations which in this case it is not."

Derbyshire Police said: "It is up to each individual officer on a case-by-case basis to decide what is reasonable as the legislation does not proscribe a distance."

The BBC contacted the Cabinet Office, Home Office, College of Policing and National Police Chiefs' Council to ask for clarification over what they define as "local area" in relation to exercise. None could clarify this.

However, the College of Policing said: "In overall terms police officers across England and Wales will be using their discretion and professional judgement about whether or not someone has a reasonable excuse for travelling for exercise and being outside the place where they are living."

[Andy135]

9 minutes ago, GPSguru said:

There might be a re-think by Police forces on how they handle this,

Whilst I'm inclined to consider the Derbyshire police response as an attempt to make a strong and visible point (which may or may not be successfully challenged), I also think it's probably no bad thing that police forces come out strongly on this.

It certainly gets the message across loud and clear, and let's face it, it will probably take dare I say "heavy-handed" police responses such as this to force the public to think twice about whether driving out of your village/town is really acting in the spirit of the lockdown, irrespective of whether the legislation is ambiguous or undefined.

I'm starting to ask myself whether the AT has perhaps done more harm than good with their lobbying. It has given us an opportunity to give angling a bad name, such as in @Odyssey's recent example of someone driving from Exeter to Minehead. It'll only take a couple of high-profile instances of anglers being caught way out of their local area for public sentiment to turn against us and then the government will have to act to ban fishing again... and potentially take a more strict view of angling in future.

 

[GPSguru]

25 minutes ago, Andy135 said:

Whilst I'm inclined to consider the Derbyshire police response as an attempt to make a strong and visible point (which may or may not be successfully challenged), I also think it's probably no bad thing that police forces come out strongly on this.

It certainly gets the message across loud and clear, and let's face it, it will probably take dare I say "heavy-handed" police responses such as this to force the public to think twice about whether driving out of your village/town is really acting in the spirit of the lockdown, irrespective of whether the legislation is ambiguous or undefined.

I'm starting to ask myself whether the AT has perhaps done more harm than good with their lobbying. It has given us an opportunity to give angling a bad name, such as in @Odyssey's recent example of someone driving from Exeter to Minehead. It'll only take a couple of high-profile instances of anglers being caught way out of their local area for public sentiment to turn against us and then the government will have to act to ban fishing again... and potentially take a more strict view of angling in future.

 

I guess there are 2 sides to every coin.

The Police are there to uphold the law, and if 'local' and 'distance' have not been defined and placed in law on the statute books, then the Police force is enforcing law by interpretation, which is wholly unacceptable and open to challenge.

This very same thing happened in the mid to late 80's with regard to the HMRC customs and the Uk being within the EU and customs union. The HMRC officers were 'interpreting' quantities of tobacco, wine, and sprits for 'personal use' and then seizing cars etc at the point of entry. One court case later, and the HMRC were forced to pay millions of pounds in compensation as they had overstepped the mark and were acting beyond their authority.

Policing by 'interpretation' and not 'statute law' is a slippery slope and one that the National Police Chiefs' Council and the Home Office will probably sidestep away from.

[Odyssey]

44 minutes ago, Andy135 said:

Whilst I'm inclined to consider the Derbyshire police response as an attempt to make a strong and visible point (which may or may not be successfully challenged), I also think it's probably no bad thing that police forces come out strongly on this.

It certainly gets the message across loud and clear, and let's face it, it will probably take dare I say "heavy-handed" police responses such as this to force the public to think twice about whether driving out of your village/town is really acting in the spirit of the lockdown, irrespective of whether the legislation is ambiguous or undefined.

I'm starting to ask myself whether the AT has perhaps done more harm than good with their lobbying. It has given us an opportunity to give angling a bad name, such as in @Odyssey's recent example of someone driving from Exeter to Minehead. It'll only take a couple of high-profile instances of anglers being caught way out of their local area for public sentiment to turn against us and then the government will have to act to ban fishing again... and potentially take a more strict view of angling in future.

 

That’s my point....

If 2 ladies are given a £200 fine and get on BBC news over taking a coffee for a walk 5 miles away, what’s going to happen when a beach/pier is full of fishermen out for a days fishing? It’s the long term image as well as people wanting to be out and about that needs a careful balance.

 

Fishing is allowed in Wales, provided you walk/cycle to get there. It’s also in legislation.

“Professional Judgement” is not law and it’s only a matter of time before someone challenges this. Once they do and there is a legal definition, you may find certain freedoms curtailed at that point. 

[GPSguru]

10 minutes ago, Odyssey said:

“Professional Judgement” is not law and it’s only a matter of time before someone challenges this. Once they do and there is a legal definition, you may find certain freedoms curtailed at that point. 

Unfortunately, in the Uk the process of law is quite slow, by the time this was taken through a court of law and then went through all the appeal processes, Lockdown 3 and probably COVID will be well into the history books !

I will be travelling 5 miles to launch my boat, but I also have good reason for being there as part of a support bubble ............ I hope common sense prevails from both the Police and public perspectives.

[Odyssey]

Maybe should have a contact details section so we can post bail for @Andy135 for when is arrested on his way to his boat for a dogfish catching session.

I understand that the call of the dogfish is quite strong for him 😉

[Saintly Fish]

6 minutes ago, Odyssey said:

Maybe should have a contact details section so we can post bail for @Andy135 for when is arrested on his way to his boat for a dogfish catching session.

I understand that the call of the dogfish is quite strong for him 😉

He does love a good doging session. 

[Andy135]

10 minutes ago, Odyssey said:

Maybe should have a contact details section so we can post bail for @Andy135 for when is arrested on his way to his boat for a dogfish catching session.

I understand that the call of the dogfish is quite strong for him 😉

The call of the dogfish is indeed strong, so I planned ahead and I now have a small pack of them living in our bath. I can now go dogging whenever I like!

🐶🐟🎣

[Saintly Fish]

9 minutes ago, Andy135 said:

The call of the dogfish is indeed strong, so I planned ahead and I now have a small pack of them living in our bath. I can now go dogging whenever I like!

🐶🐟🎣

Are you slowly filtering in or out the salt content readying them for the lake?

[Andy135]

29 minutes ago, Saintly Fish said:

Are you slowly filtering in or out the salt content readying them for the lake?

The lake is being turned into an inland saline habitat for them, and when it's ready I plan to start breeding and farming them. The world needs more dogfish!

[Maverick]

Bloody hell John where on earth do you live.  I only want to know so I can avoid the fuel costs involved in getting services lol

[suzook12]

1 hour ago, JonC said:

Local is really relevant to where you live, I live in a rural location and nothing is local. The closest school is 6 miles away and the nearest train station is 7 miles away and decent supermarket 12 miles away. 
If I lived in London 5 miles would be a world away, I could reach every amenity within half a be mile. 

You should be so lucky, our nearest station is in 1965!!

[Maverick]

12 hours ago, JonC said:

Do you get your hands dirty yourself or get it done professionally? A lot to do there I guess 

Depends.  Last year I did it all myself but the previous year for the first time ever I had a pro do the outside wash cut and polish and to be fair he did a very ok job.  This normally takes me 4 days with a bit of help from my eldest.  The pro did everything, wash cut & polished the outside in 2 days.  This was the only time I have used a pro but they do know what products to use and how to use them properly.  This year I have some very minor gel repairs I would like to have done.  My neighbour is a finishing manager at Sunseeker Boats  and obviously knows all the trades so he has suggested a guy who can deal with both the gel issues and a proper full on valet so I am awaiting a price form him.  If its within my perceived budget or he can convince me he is worth it I'll use him which means I will only be doing the anti fouling anode changes and interior clean up.

[Maverick]

7 minutes ago, suzook12 said:

You should be so lucky, our nearest station is in 1965!!

Beeching?

[suzook12]

10 minutes ago, Maverick said:

Beeching?

No, British Rail..... But blamed Beeching no doubt

[GPSguru]

 

Particulary for @Andy135 and @Odyssey

Tonight has been an interesting development.

I would think that the NPCC (National Police Chiefs Council) and ACPO (Association of Chief Police Officers) have briefed their membership following the BBC article and questioning the validity of enforcement. The D&C Police chief was on the local TV news this evening saying that his officers will Police by 'engagement' and offer 'words of advice' where appropriate. He also added that enforcement will be a last resort to those that have clearly breeched the lockdown laws put into place by the government. He went on to say that the job of the Police was not to alienate or antagonize the public as this loses public respect for the Police, and they rely on that respect to do an effective job, not only now, but also in the years to come ............. strangely enough, he didn't mention anything about dogfish !

 

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by GPSguru

[Andy135]

I've heard TVP say the same but prior to this lockdown.

One of the parents at my son's school is an officer and he told my wife that their force focuses their efforts on large house parties and gatherings and that they don't do individual stops or beauty spot stakeouts. Whether that will change with this new lockdown... who knows.

[GPSguru]

1 minute ago, Andy135 said:

I've heard TVP say the same but prior to this lockdown.

One of the parents at my son's school is an officer and he told my wife that their force focuses their efforts on large house parties and gatherings and that they don't do individual stops or beauty spot stakeouts. Whether that will change with this new lockdown... who knows.

Yes, it makes huge sense in the public eye for them to be clamping down on large gatherings, and folk that travel huge distances to holiday homes.

Let us hope that common sense will prevail ............ it is a good job that @JonC and @Saintly Fish are not Police officers 🤣

[GPSguru]

 

Ok, so a new development, and an admission of over zealous policing ...........

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-55594244

From the article the important 'U-turn' wording,

Derbyshire Police initially said driving to exercise was "not in the spirit" of lockdown.

But it now says new national guidelines mean it will review its position.

In a statement, the force said all of its fixed penalties issued during the new national lockdown will be reviewed.

 

Back peddling big time as you can't issue a FPN when no law have been breeched ..............

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by GPSguru

[Andy135]

Yes, I just read the same. A potentially significant development.

[GPSguru]

2 hours ago, Andy135 said:

Yes, I just read the same. A potentially significant development.

 

It is shocking when people of authority have to be told how to do their job 🙄

The Guidance issued by the NPCC is potentially a game changer for you Andy 👍

 In a statement, the force said further guidance issued by the National Police Chiefs Council (NPCC) had "clarified the policing response concerning travel and exercise".

The guidance said: "The Covid regulations which officers enforce and which enables them to issue FPNs [fixed penalty notices] for breaches, do not restrict the distance travelled for exercise."

Edited January 9, 2021 by GPSguru

[Maverick]

9 hours ago, GPSguru said:

It is shocking when people of authority have to be told how to do their job

It is kind of shocking however, not that the police get it wrong as I believe in actual fact they didn't get it wrong as it was an interpretation of a poorly worded instruction.  It is the politicians or law makers that have yet again been woolly and left it to others to decipher what they actually mean.  It is actually very unfair of law makers not to be decisive with their wording then instruct others to enforce and subsequently take the flack for a wording cock up.

I'm not saying the police are right or wrong and neither saying that the ladies who have been fined are right or wrong as the blame should lay 100% with those further up the ladder who are always very good a dropping shit on those below them.

[Andy135]

Another day, another change of direction? This morning's headlines include one about government and police now cracking down on enforcement of rules, rather than engagement with the public. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-55597265

[Geoff]

Due to the nature of our villages, towns and cities the word "local" may mean 5 miles to some and perhaps 50 to others, so it is very difficult to define and for the police and other authorities to police. The two  Derbyshire women were treated in a heavy handed way and would have benefitted more from discussion and advice. The people that went on a "seal sightseeing" trip were just taking the mickey IMHO. There obviously does need to be some better way of defining what is and what is not permitted, but the whole exercise is intended to limit the spread of this horrible virus and we should all be looking to abide by the spirit of containment and not look for loopholes to enable us to do whatever we wish. I have not left the house since mid December, and my wife (there are just the two of us) has been to the local supermarket on two occasions during the same time. Until this virus is under control all of us need to play our part in this, and not just try to convince ourselves that what we do does not matter - it does. Geoff.